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	<title>Comments on: Progress on CSS3 marches on</title>
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		<title>By: From Legacy to Web 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Are you afraid of shadows?</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-232352</link>
		<dc:creator>From Legacy to Web 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Are you afraid of shadows?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Mar 2009 05:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-232352</guid>
		<description>[...] how iTunes manages all those cool effects with the iPhone App images? The neat text shadows and box shadows for images, the curved corners&#8230; I thought it was something they were using an image tool for, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] how iTunes manages all those cool effects with the iPhone App images? The neat text shadows and box shadows for images, the curved corners&#8230; I thought it was something they were using an image tool for, [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: W3C Public CVS Repository</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-160211</link>
		<dc:creator>W3C Public CVS Repository</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 03:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-160211</guid>
		<description>Changes from CSS 2.1 
‘Background-clip’, ‘background-break’, and ‘background-origin’ are new. Also there are changes to the ‘background’ shorthand property. 

‘Background-attachment’ has a new value ‘local’. 

The background can now have multiple images. As a consequence, several properties now accept a comma-separated list of values. 

‘Box-shadow’, ‘border-image’, ‘border-break’ and ‘border-radius’ are new. 
This module will have its own test suite 
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-background/Overview.html?rev=1.28&amp;content-type=text/plain#context</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Changes from CSS 2.1<br />
‘Background-clip’, ‘background-break’, and ‘background-origin’ are new. Also there are changes to the ‘background’ shorthand property. </p>
<p>‘Background-attachment’ has a new value ‘local’. </p>
<p>The background can now have multiple images. As a consequence, several properties now accept a comma-separated list of values. </p>
<p>‘Box-shadow’, ‘border-image’, ‘border-break’ and ‘border-radius’ are new.<br />
This module will have its own test suite<br />
<a href="http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-background/Overview.html?rev=1.28&amp;content-type=text/plain#context" rel="nofollow">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/csswg/css3-background/Overview.html?rev=1.28&amp;content-type=text/plain#context</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: fantasai</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-94609</link>
		<dc:creator>fantasai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 20:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-94609</guid>
		<description>It gets updated whenever someone checks in changes. How often that is depends on whether one of us is working on the draft that day. :) Since this is our working copy, most of the changes will be minor: fixing typos, adding detail to a definition, or changing a feature&#039;s syntax: each one of these is likely to be checked in as a separate change. You can see CVS&#039;s record of what&#039;s happening through the &lt;a href=&quot;http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-background/Overview.src.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CVSWeb view&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It gets updated whenever someone checks in changes. How often that is depends on whether one of us is working on the draft that day. :) Since this is our working copy, most of the changes will be minor: fixing typos, adding detail to a definition, or changing a feature&#8217;s syntax: each one of these is likely to be checked in as a separate change. You can see CVS&#8217;s record of what&#8217;s happening through the <a href="http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/csswg/css3-background/Overview.src.html" rel="nofollow">CVSWeb view</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Gasston</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-94470</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Gasston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2008 11:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-94470</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure how frequently this draft is updated, but there&#039;s a new version dated January 14th available now; seems to be the same as what you&#039;ve written, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure how frequently this draft is updated, but there&#8217;s a new version dated January 14th available now; seems to be the same as what you&#8217;ve written, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Mogilevsky</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-93802</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Mogilevsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 16:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-93802</guid>
		<description>You are very right noticing that CSS draft are being moved into publicly visible CVS repository. In fact there is little or zero technical discussions at this point that are not held in www-style@w3.org, and majority of editing actually happens at http://dev.w3.org/csswg/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are very right noticing that CSS draft are being moved into publicly visible CVS repository. In fact there is little or zero technical discussions at this point that are not held in <a href="mailto:www-style@w3.org">www-style@w3.org</a>, and majority of editing actually happens at <a href="http://dev.w3.org/csswg/" rel="nofollow">http://dev.w3.org/csswg/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stifu</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90719</link>
		<dc:creator>Stifu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-90719</guid>
		<description>David: basically, users are only prompted to update to the next major version after a while. Maybe once support for a certain branch has ended, or a little before.

Here&#039;s an old quote that shows this:
&quot;A final update, 1.5.0.12, however is in development and should be available around the end of May. After that Mozilla is planning to push the first major Firefox update, so Firefox 1.5.0.12 users will be prompted to update to, then current, 2.0.0.4.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David: basically, users are only prompted to update to the next major version after a while. Maybe once support for a certain branch has ended, or a little before.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an old quote that shows this:<br />
&#8220;A final update, 1.5.0.12, however is in development and should be available around the end of May. After that Mozilla is planning to push the first major Firefox update, so Firefox 1.5.0.12 users will be prompted to update to, then current, 2.0.0.4.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: David Storey</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90716</link>
		<dc:creator>David Storey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-90716</guid>
		<description>Robin: As far as I understand it only updates to a later browser of that major version (unless they&#039;ve changed this).  If this is the case then users wont automatically get FF3 if they have FF2.  I could be wrong though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robin: As far as I understand it only updates to a later browser of that major version (unless they&#8217;ve changed this).  If this is the case then users wont automatically get FF3 if they have FF2.  I could be wrong though.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90715</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-90715</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’d guess it would also be the same for Mozilla, but that will slow down as they move more mainstream.&quot;

Not really, Firefox&#039;s update mechanism is really seriously good at getting users to upgrade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’d guess it would also be the same for Mozilla, but that will slow down as they move more mainstream.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not really, Firefox&#8217;s update mechanism is really seriously good at getting users to upgrade.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David Storey</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90678</link>
		<dc:creator>David Storey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-90678</guid>
		<description>John,

What you say makes sense.  Even though there seems to be a good amound of interest in Grid layout, it can&#039;t be used in a meaningful way until at least the OS release from Microsoft after their release of IE that supports it (or most likely the OS it comes with). And only when that OS becomes popular.  In Grid layout&#039;s favour is that the spec is written by two MS employees.  At least Markus is on the IE team, and probably Alex too.  I would guess that if they wrote the module it will give them more motivation to implement it.  

For some of CSS3 it depends on how it is used.  Many of the new selectors (some of which are fairly widely supported) will be difficult to use due to backwards compatibility reasons, but can be used in a backwards compatibile way.  I&#039;ve used &lt;code&gt;p:first-of-type::first-letter&lt;/code&gt; to add drops caps for example, or &lt;code&gt;tr:nth-child(odd)&lt;/code&gt; for tiger stripes on tables to aid they eye when looking at tables.  

A lot of the stuff that in the majority of cases is backwards compatible are included in the Backgrounds and borders module.  Some still depends on how you use it of course, like multiple background images.  A lot of this stuff are what I&#039;d like Opera to implement, and the spec is now reaching a stage where this becomes more feasible. Then it is more a case of release schedules etc (which are things I&#039;m sure you know about during your experiences with Style Master).  

I&#039;d also agree with you that a majority of sites still use table based layout, including some companies that should know better. Opera is fortunate that are users upgrade quickly.  I&#039;d guess it would also be the same for Mozilla, but that will slow down as they move more mainstream.  Microsoft doesn&#039;t have that luxuary as many of their users don&#039;t even know what a browser is (they surf Google with the Blue E), never mind that it needs updating.  

I think I disagree with you on Safari though.  Opera probably has more draft CSS3 features, but the Safari only features worry me.  If It was IE and MS people would be up in arms.  I&#039;m not following the internal communication of the working group, so if they propose the features then implement them to show how it could be done then that is a little different.  But many people will remmember things like IE only CSS filters. These were impossible to implement by other browsers as they tapped into Direct-X.  Then there is the whole Active X issue.  The animations in Safari probably hook straight into core Animation, which is only available on OS X, and certainly not phone like the RAZR or other such devices.  It probably only takes them a few lines of code.  For other browsers this would be none trivial.  Opera of course has animation in SVG.  It would make more sense (to me at least) to make sure any animation in CSS was compatible with that in SVG, so authors can transfer knowledge and implementers don&#039;t have to implement the code from scratch twice, for two different technologies, to get the same end effect.  I don&#039;t think any other browser than Opera has SVG animations though.  

Lets also not forget that vendor only solutions cause compatibility issues.  We get all sorts of problems because sites use CSS Filters (not standards aware developers in the most part, but many real world sites still use them), or Mozilla extensions to the DOM.  Safari can&#039;t really cause problems like this because it doesn&#039;t have enough market share - or so you&#039;d think.  It is though, as rightly or wrongly, many developers think the only phone that can surf the web is iPhone (wel Steve more or less said so in his keynote ;)).  Thus mobile sites are using the -webkit- prepend without the none prepend version.  This in itself is unfortunate, but when they use the properties Safari invented that have no standards fallback to even use, then we (Opera) can do nothing about it.  We can&#039;t even really implement the Safari only property, until it has been put in a spec.  There is more than enough real CSS3 to implement, that at least tell us how it works and will be test suites.  Reverse engineering is expensive. It is a dangerous game people are playing when they wish for more vendor only innovation in the rendering engine field.  

Opera actually invents a lot of things ourself, but that goes more unnoticed as we push to standardise them quickly.  I believe for example that Sever-sent events and Web Forms 2 from HTML5 were Opera inventions, and possibly cleint side storage (but I&#039;m not sure about that one.  Widgets 1.0 was certainly a Opera technology we worked to standardise from the start.  I think this is the approach that should be taken (even if you get less credit for it).  If Apple are taking this approach then the issues I outlined become less of an issue, and we just need to get developers to five up the blind Apple faith and include the none prepended versions of properties instead of just the -webkit- one.  The current iPhone only web development practice is a sad chapter in the web standards movement, that is hopefully dying out.  Luckly people like Roger Johansson and Eric Meyer have spoken out against it.  I wish ther was more work in WaSP on this, but then again there are a lot of Apple fans in WaSP ;) Anyway, sorry for the rant.  Working on site compatibility day in, day out, some of this stuff is starting to fustrate me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>What you say makes sense.  Even though there seems to be a good amound of interest in Grid layout, it can&#8217;t be used in a meaningful way until at least the OS release from Microsoft after their release of IE that supports it (or most likely the OS it comes with). And only when that OS becomes popular.  In Grid layout&#8217;s favour is that the spec is written by two MS employees.  At least Markus is on the IE team, and probably Alex too.  I would guess that if they wrote the module it will give them more motivation to implement it.  </p>
<p>For some of CSS3 it depends on how it is used.  Many of the new selectors (some of which are fairly widely supported) will be difficult to use due to backwards compatibility reasons, but can be used in a backwards compatibile way.  I&#8217;ve used <code>p:first-of-type::first-letter</code> to add drops caps for example, or <code>tr:nth-child(odd)</code> for tiger stripes on tables to aid they eye when looking at tables.  </p>
<p>A lot of the stuff that in the majority of cases is backwards compatible are included in the Backgrounds and borders module.  Some still depends on how you use it of course, like multiple background images.  A lot of this stuff are what I&#8217;d like Opera to implement, and the spec is now reaching a stage where this becomes more feasible. Then it is more a case of release schedules etc (which are things I&#8217;m sure you know about during your experiences with Style Master).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d also agree with you that a majority of sites still use table based layout, including some companies that should know better. Opera is fortunate that are users upgrade quickly.  I&#8217;d guess it would also be the same for Mozilla, but that will slow down as they move more mainstream.  Microsoft doesn&#8217;t have that luxuary as many of their users don&#8217;t even know what a browser is (they surf Google with the Blue E), never mind that it needs updating.  </p>
<p>I think I disagree with you on Safari though.  Opera probably has more draft CSS3 features, but the Safari only features worry me.  If It was IE and MS people would be up in arms.  I&#8217;m not following the internal communication of the working group, so if they propose the features then implement them to show how it could be done then that is a little different.  But many people will remmember things like IE only CSS filters. These were impossible to implement by other browsers as they tapped into Direct-X.  Then there is the whole Active X issue.  The animations in Safari probably hook straight into core Animation, which is only available on OS X, and certainly not phone like the RAZR or other such devices.  It probably only takes them a few lines of code.  For other browsers this would be none trivial.  Opera of course has animation in SVG.  It would make more sense (to me at least) to make sure any animation in CSS was compatible with that in SVG, so authors can transfer knowledge and implementers don&#8217;t have to implement the code from scratch twice, for two different technologies, to get the same end effect.  I don&#8217;t think any other browser than Opera has SVG animations though.  </p>
<p>Lets also not forget that vendor only solutions cause compatibility issues.  We get all sorts of problems because sites use CSS Filters (not standards aware developers in the most part, but many real world sites still use them), or Mozilla extensions to the DOM.  Safari can&#8217;t really cause problems like this because it doesn&#8217;t have enough market share &#8211; or so you&#8217;d think.  It is though, as rightly or wrongly, many developers think the only phone that can surf the web is iPhone (wel Steve more or less said so in his keynote ;)).  Thus mobile sites are using the -webkit- prepend without the none prepend version.  This in itself is unfortunate, but when they use the properties Safari invented that have no standards fallback to even use, then we (Opera) can do nothing about it.  We can&#8217;t even really implement the Safari only property, until it has been put in a spec.  There is more than enough real CSS3 to implement, that at least tell us how it works and will be test suites.  Reverse engineering is expensive. It is a dangerous game people are playing when they wish for more vendor only innovation in the rendering engine field.  </p>
<p>Opera actually invents a lot of things ourself, but that goes more unnoticed as we push to standardise them quickly.  I believe for example that Sever-sent events and Web Forms 2 from HTML5 were Opera inventions, and possibly cleint side storage (but I&#8217;m not sure about that one.  Widgets 1.0 was certainly a Opera technology we worked to standardise from the start.  I think this is the approach that should be taken (even if you get less credit for it).  If Apple are taking this approach then the issues I outlined become less of an issue, and we just need to get developers to five up the blind Apple faith and include the none prepended versions of properties instead of just the -webkit- one.  The current iPhone only web development practice is a sad chapter in the web standards movement, that is hopefully dying out.  Luckly people like Roger Johansson and Eric Meyer have spoken out against it.  I wish ther was more work in WaSP on this, but then again there are a lot of Apple fans in WaSP ;) Anyway, sorry for the rant.  Working on site compatibility day in, day out, some of this stuff is starting to fustrate me.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stifu</title>
		<link>http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/comment-page-1/#comment-90628</link>
		<dc:creator>Stifu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 09:39:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.css3.info/progress-on-css3-marches-on/#comment-90628</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s hoping border-radius will soon be a candidate recommendation, so browsers can implement the property with no prefix...
Not long ago, the bug that made it so background images spilled beyond rounded borders has been fixed in Firefox 3, so supporting the real border-radius property would let us use that feature, while at the same time ensuring our pages will still degrade gracefully in Firefox 2, by simply not supporting the -moz equivalent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s hoping border-radius will soon be a candidate recommendation, so browsers can implement the property with no prefix&#8230;<br />
Not long ago, the bug that made it so background images spilled beyond rounded borders has been fixed in Firefox 3, so supporting the real border-radius property would let us use that feature, while at the same time ensuring our pages will still degrade gracefully in Firefox 2, by simply not supporting the -moz equivalent.</p>
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