Update by David: Opera has now released a public WinGogi build of Opera passing the DOM test and with pixel perfect rendering. We don’t believe we have passed the test yet, as there are performance issues with a couple of tests. This puts Opera and Safari neck and neck. It is fantastic to see both the Apple and Opera teams taking this test seriously and pushing each other to improve our standards support. Who ever wins the race doesn’t really matter, the main point is that there are now two engines with the required standards support to pass Acid 3. This could be a shot in the arm for both CSS3 and SVG.
Update by David: Although the Acid 3 test was updated to allow WebKit to pass by the letter of the test, they still seem to fail by the spirit of the competition. One of the sections of the Acid 3 test checks SVG Animation. WebKit have added the interface to allow the test to pass, but not fully implemented the feature it was testing. See Jeff Schiller’s blog for more information.
Update by Joost: While Opera might have been the first to pass the test in laboratory conditions, for which I applaud them and I hope they release it ASAP, you can download a WebKit nightly right now and enjoy the full 100/100!
Update In the last few minutes (while I was eating lunch) the final 2% was reaching, making Opera the first browser to reach 100%. There are still some rendering issues, but things are well on track to passing the test. A preview build will be released on Opera Labs shortly. Thanks to our developers in Scandinavia that have been working into the evening to reach 100%.
Safari has been making great gains in its Acid3 score in recent weeks, currently residing on 96%. Opera however has come out of the chasing pack and moved from 77% in the latest weekly release of Kestrel, to
98%in the latest internal builds. As part of this it also includes the long requested CSS3 HSLA and RGBA support, and Web Fonts.
These improvements wont be included in a weekly Kestrel build any time soon. Opera, like Mozilla, are at a stage on our development process where we are closing in on a release, and thus regression testing and stability are critically important. This work will most likely (although not confirmed) go into a post Kestrel release, in case it causes regressions and the like. There will probably be an experimental alpha release showing this improved support in the not too distant future.
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Everyone say YAY for HSLA!
Bram.us » Opera overshoots Safari/Webkit in the ACID3 race says:Comment » March 26th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
[…] from 77% in the latest weekly release of Kestrel, to 98% in the latest internal builds” (src) Spread the […]
Isn’t anyone else getting a bit bored with these “look we can pass the tests in an internal build, but none of this will be released any time soon” anouncements?
I’m impressed with features that are in real browser installations on real peoples computers. I want features that can be actually used, passing tests surely means little unless the features are solid enough to make it into the wild.
SHOW ME THE MONEY!
I think opera just want to be the first, they wont let safari take it before them. But I couldnt agree with you more Ed, Its useless if they dont actually put it in the browser (Even though when they do it will be almost as worthless since they will be the only 2, with their very little market share.)
6: even if the annoucement came with a useable snapshot build, you’d still need sites that use code for this and internet explorer to finally die so advanced css features spread..
also this is the first time we saw an announcement about an internal release, the rest from every single browser vendor came with usable preview builds
Thanks Tim. We were talking to the other Tim and we were on the verse of 99% at that stage. Great to see us reach 100% while I was at lunch.
Joost/Ed: It is unfair to demand such a build instantly. We have basically just checked in these changes, and there is no way a public build can be made that fast. This site is about future technology, and we’ve just added a couple of CSS3 properties, so I thought it would be best to announce it as soon as we have it. This is post Kestrel work, as we are deep into our development testing. These kind of changes require a lot of work that could cause regressions that will take many QA hours to ensure they are up to release quality. Safari were very fast recently at adding Acid3 as they have already released their major release and don’t have to focus on the stability as much at this stage, like Mozilla and ourselves do. The build with these improvements will be released as soon as possible however. Some fixes may be included in Kestrel but it depends how risky the changes are. HSLA and RGBA are quite a big change for example as colour has to be represented with the alpha channel internally instead of just RG and B channels. This changes code in a lot of modules.
Wow, what a race it turned out to be, even if we didn’t know that Opera were actually working on Acid3 until today.
Glad that Opera beat the webkit team to it. The Mozilla guys have plenty of time to get Acid3 right, probably until summer/winter 2009 (Firefox 4).
But Fyrd if you look carefully “internal” Opera doesn’t pass Acid3. There is no space between coma and ‘a’ mark in a sentence “To pass the test, a browser must use its default settings”. There is a strong condition to pass the test: “the final page has to look exactly, pixel for pixel”.
Also other condition is: “the animation has to be smooth” If there is no public version of “internal” Opera how you can claim that Opera pass the test if cannot check smoothness of the test?
I would like to reiterate Tim’s comments.
I think too much attention is being given to the score percentage itself, rather than the smooth rendering and pixel-for-pixel likeness to the reference rendering (although judging by the screenshot David provides, it looks pretty spot on), that is required to pass the test.
Even though the internal build passes all 100 tests, Opera are obviously aware of some additional issues that need to be ironed out- to quote David, “There are still some rendering issues, but things are well on track to passing the test”.
@Ed: As I’ve mentioned before, neither David or Tim suggest that Acid3 has been passed; David has merely indicated that all 100 tests that are part of Acid3 have been passed. If the guys over at Webkit release a nightly that passes all three criteria, before Opera release a public build incorporating Acid3 support, then I would deem Webkit to be the winner.
Still all to play for, I think.
Rather than get caught up in who earns bragging rights for reaching the milestone first (and I think the first browser to make a release with a 100% score should get that!), what we should be celebrating is that browser makers are taking standards and interoperability seriously and that rendering quirks are becoming a thing of the past. We all win when that happens.
How about Acid 1 test pixel-to-pixel rendering?
Seems to me that only IE and Firefox pass this. Safari, Opera, iCab also passes, but not pixel-to-pixel because of rounding differences:
Opera, Safari and iCab use flooring
Internet Explorer, Mozilla use rounding
Firefox 3 does best job for now…
What are you talking about? Comment 21 proves nothing. It’s not an official Opera site (anymore) since Daniel left Opera, and it’s a misunderstanding on his part. None of the blame is on Opera since Opera Software never claimed to pass Acid3. In fact, the desktop blog specifically points out that there is still work left to do.
You need to stop being dishonest and making claims about Opera Software that are demonstrably false.
A little question about Acid3. It seems to me to be pretty strange to have a test where 100 out of 100 is not a pass.
If rendering issues can still fail it even though a ‘max’ is reached, shouldn’t the test be re-designed to encapsulate those failures in a reduced score? 100 out of 101?
@Mike S: We will need to retest Opera, but just because the test changed doesn’t mean that Opera won’t score 100/100 on the updated test.
Heh, written in the test but changing as we go.
A test that requires pixel by pixel comparison seems kindof perverse doesn’t it? Surely there has to be a better way of doing it? Would the changes that are being tested using per-pixel differencese not be possible with using 10pixel or something that becomes instantly obvious that it has failed if a visual comparison is the only way of doing it?
(I’m never going to read the Acid3 test to find the pass conditions; just commenting that in general a test that relies on such acute attention to determine pass or fail seems to me to be a bad test)
Sitting here at my cushy desk, I was able to DOWNLOAD and USE the nightly build of Webkit, and it, currently, in a browser I use day to day, gives me 100. Sorry to say, but bragging rights go (yet again, like with Acid 2) to Webkit and the Webkit team…
None of this is useful until a full release has been made. What good is having a nightly/Alpha release which passes the Acid3 test if we then have to wait for 6 months until people start using it? Calm down, everyone, and wait for someone to actually release this.
@David Storey: I’m not asking for the build now and I fully appreciate all the work that’s being put into making this stuff happen. It’s just that what makes a difference to the web developers (and the web) are the products that are on people’s computers. I look farward to being able to use these features, but I reserve my excitement for actually using them.
My criticism was not so much of the browser developers, but more the web developer community that is hyping a vacuous race to pass Acid tests in builds that aren’t available to the public. Lets collectively get excited by proper releases and increases in the alternative browser market share – this would be stuff that actually lets us build better websites.
@ All browser vendors (even MS): Good work recently :-)
I don’t know what sentio had in mind, but that wasn’t what I was implying, I wasn’t accusing Opera of anything. I was just highlighting the fact people would easily misinterpret the facts.
That said, now that you say it, it’s true that it sounds a lot like Opera tried their best to *make it look like* they passed the test first. If they truly wanted to avoid any misunderstanding, they could have easily done so in the article, but it looks like they preferred to keep it vague, for people to draw their own conclusion.
That’s a lot like what the IE team did with the Acid2 test, I think. They didn’t literally claim IE8 passed the test (which would have been a lie, since the default rendering mode back then was the one of IE7), but cleverly implied it without saying it.
Ed: We have to pass it first in a development build before it gets included in a public release :) This is just stage one of getting what you wish for.
Stifu: I’m not sure I like your allegations. When and where did Opera try their best to make it look like we passed the test first. In every post I know from an Opera employee, we’ve made it clear that we were the first to reach 100% but haven’t passed the test. There is no debating that. I’m sorry if people can’t read correctly.
I wonder why Opera felt the need to pull this stunt. Safari will still be the first publicly released non beta/nightly browser to pass while Opera 9.5 won’t even come close to this WinGogi alpha’s score as everyone from Opera says Acid3 won’t block the final release of Kestrel. Also it seems funny the Opera employees feel the need to defend themselves when they think they did nothing wrong.
@Anon: I strongly disagree with your suggestion that this was a stunt by Opera.
As I’ve mentioned before David merely pointed out the fact that an internal build has passed all 100 DOM tests, NOT that they’d completely passed Acid3. He sums it up quite nicely,”I’m sorry if people can’t read correctly.”
One thing your automated test fails to test, so I don’t really know if it’s in Acid3 or not, is the :lang() selector in xml-based doctypes.
I use xhtml 1.1, so that “lang” attribute no longer exists and the CSS3 specifications explicitely ask implementors to use the value of “xml:lang” instead. Sadly, I haven’t see any browser supporting this yet…
I’m sorry if my comments came off as insulting… but I just thought that if the Opera team truly wanted to avoid any (predictable) misunderstanding, they could just have simply added something like “Although we reached 100%, that doesn’t mean Opera pass the test yet, as we still have to fix this and that” in order to clear things up for everybody.
Among all the people excited about the Acid3 test, commenting on it etc, how many actually understand what it’s really about, and what’s required to actually pass it? From some random sites/articles I read, many are clueless… So, it wouldn’t hurt to explain things clearly.
That said, I have to agree with Anon about Opera people being overdefensive. Wut kinda jumped at me to defend Opera while I wasn’t attacking them at all in the first place, he only gave me the idea to do so. :p
“it’s true that it sounds a lot like Opera tried their best to *make it look like* they passed the test first”
You are lying on purpose, aren’t you? Here is what Opera actually said:
“There are some remaining issues yet to be fixed, but we hope to have those sorted out shortly.”
Why do you feel the need to constantly lie and misrepresent Opera’s statements?
Acid 3: It’s not about winning, it’s about taking part | Broken Links says:Comment » March 28th, 2008 at 11:34 am
[…] It’s an exciting time to be a web developer, as all four major browsers have released / are releasing new versions with extended CSS & HTML support. However, as Opera and Webkit race to be the first to score 100% on the Acid3 test, a lot of people are getting caught up in the excitement and turning this into some kind of pissing contest. […]
You’re getting the wrong idea. I actually like Opera and all, and have not been known to troll and bash them for no reason (I actually promote it on my site). And yes, I must have forgotten about the fact they said there were remaining issues, so sorry about that.
However, you pointed out earlier that this person who claimed Opera passed the test was an ex Opera employee, something I didn’t know. And although this person worked in the development of a browser, and so should know better, he still couldn’t even tell Opera didn’t pass the test. If such an experienced person makes such a mistake, what do you think “less knowledgeable” people will do?
So yeah, the blame still clearly can’t go to Opera for that kind of misunderstanding, I have to admit. But I was also bothered by how overmediatized Acid3 is, and how Opera tries so hard to be the first just for the publicity (I can’t blame people who call that kind of stuff “PR stunts”), while much more serious bugs (that have a real impact on the web as it is today) are left hanging for months or years. To clear that up, yes, it’s good to pass the Acid3, and standards matter and all, but there are more urgent priorities to me.
Maybe you’d think the same could be said about Safari, and that may be true… but from my experience, Safari seemed less flawed than Opera, making concentrating that much on the Acid3 “more justified”, maybe.
David, it is true that our SVG animation implementation is pretty incomplete. Obviously we don’t consider it done. But it is not our fault that the test passed with barely more than turning on the temporarily disabled code that we already had.
As Peter pointed in one of his comments, let’s not forget what this news really means.
The simple fact of the matter is it’s a measure for how quickly standards are being adopted- this is a positive thing, so let’s not go trying to turn this great news into something that comes across as negative, because of blatantly misinterpreting the information that David presented to us.
CSS3 is not a W3C recommendation, and its specifications are not even final. I think the term “standard” is very exaggerated.
Even if it was a W3C recommendation, and considering the market, it won’t be a standard if MS doesn’t adopt it in IE (something used by less that 30% of the market is hardly a standard).
I don’t want to start a flamewar here, just to point out some realities. It’s just too sad the industry “big players” don’t want to put the same amount of effort in supporting open standards than Opera or Webkit :-/
Today I nearly broke down in tears (in annoyance)… :: Coding and Dreaming says:Comment » March 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
[…] pass (but not an animation pass). This announcement came very soon (on the same day, in fact) after David announced that Opera’s latest internal build had passed all 100 DOM tests- it was just very unfortunate that some people misinterpreted this information and started accusing […]
Iron_Storm: Opera hasn’t won yet. We are at the same position as WebKit: We need to make the animations smooth. It can be argued that is very subjective as it depends on the speed of the hardware and network speed for instance.
Maciej: That is true. I probably sounded a bit too negative about WebKit there (I updated when it was late and tired). It is probably more the fault of the test that it doesn’t need very much support for what it is testing to pass. I still congratulate WebKit for all the work it has done, and making this race fun. I’m enjoying how this battle is pushing us both to improve our standards support faster. Maybe we should do this more often ;)
“[…] It is fantastic to see both the Apple and Opera teams taking this test seriously […]”.
The test intent is to improve standard support and interoperability. Adding support for the smil features of the acid test, but failing all of the official test suite is not exactly what I’d call “serious”.
I hope the stable releases will seriously (if not fully) implement the standards acid3 is testing.
Serious David: I was quite disappointed by that myself, but I fully expect they won’t release a official version of Safari with support at that level. They will most likely either haveto release without passing Acid3 or fix up their work in progress on SMIL. I suspect it will be the later ,but can’t talk for WebKit.
Opera is the first to pass the Acid3 Test! at kyleabaker.com says:Comment » April 9th, 2008 at 5:59 am
[…] than a day later 100/100! CSS3.info has a good read about this on their website. You can find that here. […]
While this is of course a sign of good things to come, it doesn’t mean squat until the stable versions that everyday users browse with reach this level of CSS3 support. Until then it is premature to say one browser has beaten the other. Whoever puts the fully CSS3-supporting browser into the hands of end users is the one to applaud and give credit to.