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200908 Jul
Perhaps foreshadowed by Google’s adoption of HTML 5, Jeffrey Zeldman pointed out late last week; the future of XHTML 2 is no more. Obviously the selectors we use in CSS 3 depend on the underlying markup we work with, so this news is very interesting and we think timely. As CSS 3 support inches forward with each browser release and as JavaScript libraries supplement poor browser behavior, the need for web developers and enthusiasts to be able to focus their attention has become a paramount concern.
So what do we have at this point? Still not as much native and consistent CSS 3 support across the browsers that we code for, but we do have a bit more stable footing with the wide adoption of HTML 5. Opera and Safari led the way last year with the first introduction of HTML 5, and now we have Internet Explorer 8, as well the recent update of Firefox 3.5, with even more HTML 5 support baked in. At the moment, at least we have less to worry about as we produce new sites and focus on doing so elegantly (with clean and accessible code). Chrome pushed back on a few key HTML 5 features, but as I said earlier Google is on board as well with HTML 5, which also means that our sites should be well-indexed as we move forward, which is great.
I for one am quite glad that HTML 5 is being embraced more and more and that solutions like Google Gears are hopefully going to become a less essential ingredient in rich internet applications (with desktop application like capabilities). As a practical matter, Mads Kjaer (@mads) has demonstrated exactly what we expected, providing a concise tutorial on how to produce a blog layout using techniques that will no doubt become more popular following the W3C decision. Check out the code right now.
All of this news is definitely exciting. Let us know your thoughts and experiences in the comments!
You can skip to the end and leave a response.
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Comments
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David says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 1:11 pm
XHTML is there to stay.
It is XHTML2 that has poor support.
XHTML5 is and will be very useful for a lot of people. -
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I’ve been using quite a bit of CSS3 lately – text-shadow, border-radius, RGBa – but I was working on a design today that involved curves and transparency that had to look the same in IE and was wishing that CSS3 support was more widespread.
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David: XHTML5? Either that was a typo, or you’re very confused…
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Anonymous says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
@stifu. Sorry but David is perfectly right. Please have a look at the HTML5 Spec for more ionformation on the topic
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Alex says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Since I can’t edit and I hit submit too early…
A valid HTML 4.01 document is also a valid HTML5 document, that also applies to XHTML and XHTML5 (XHTML is just HTML treated as XML, XHTML5 is no different)
My site validates as XHTML 1.1 using the W3C validator, and as XHTML5 using the HTML5 validator.
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David says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
I don’t think I’m confused. Read http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xhtml2-html5-q-and-a/ for example. Henri has a natural talent for informing about (x)html parsing. (btw his parsers are excellent)
Frederick, could you correct your article, or am I really missing something ?
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@WR, no I meant marriage. Matches are situational and conditional, marriage means forever. No other suitors, no better combinations possible.
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It seems almost every blog post about XHTML2’s demise, there’s a commenter or two that believes XHTML is completely gone (i.e. unaware about XHTML5)
The W3C might want to work on making developers more aware of this as there seems to be a lot of confusion about it.
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@Neal G do you have any posts etc you can share with the community that will help clarify? That is what this site is all about! :)
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A Marriage Made in Heaven? HTML 5 & CSS 3 – CSS3 . Info | ScriptRemix.com Scripts says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 5:36 pm
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David says:Comment » July 8th, 2009 at 11:10 pm
@Frederick Please read http://hsivonen.iki.fi/xhtml2-html5-q-and-a/ again, starting from the question “Is the W3C dropping work on XHTML?”
So I think it would be very good not to confuse readers more (see 3rd comment) and correct the article by adding the little “2” missing after “XHTML”.
Thank you for this article btw !
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[…] A Marriage Made in Heaven? HTML 5 & CSS 3 (tags: html5) […]
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On the XHTML subject, I usually refer to XML-serialized HTML5 as HTML5+XML just so I can keep my sanity and not at any point get confused, xD.
HTML5: If you liked HTML, you’ll love HTML5. If you liked XHTML, you’ll love HTML5!
I think of the dropping of XHTML2 as not a defeat, but more of a transfer of resources, which really that’s all it is.
It’s funny how people on the internet react to things like this. Like the swear filtering on Youtube or the election of a new president. So many usually react with ZOMG statements without looking a bit deeper.
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@Josh B, I agree. Focus is not a bad thing, the problem is exactly what you point out – confusion and misunderstanding. Just as significant the real reasons as to why some of these decisions are made is often an enigma as well. By now the web community is so diverse that some projects should not have to be abandoned in order to realize others.
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It is truly disheartening that HTML 5 makes no effort at being *extensible* and forward/backward compatible.
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p.s. As an example, the page you linked to, http://nettuts.s3.amazonaws.com/373_html5/final/index.html#, breaks in IE8 and Firefox 3. Too bad they didn’t just use something like (hint: this doesn’t break in older browsers, so we could start using it commercially today) instead of breaking old HTML with totally new elements like . You know, non-extensible one-off elements.
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I must agree…in more ways than one. I do have a few concerns on that page as numbered headers are inside the header tag…two elements for one thing? I do not understand. That’s like nesting a div within a div for no real reason than to nest a div within a div, lol. The site looks good in FF3.5 yet the custom elements aren’t showing up in IE. I suppose the h1, h2, h3, etc within the header tag is for backward compatibility purposes, but backward-compat. is broken if the newer elements aren’t extensible.
I do hope no confusion is created by the usage of h1, h2, h3, etc within a header tag, plus a footer being inside a section that’s inside a footer, lol. The validator actually complains about that. A flow of a section as I supposed was to go…
section
– header
– paragraph or container
– header
– section
— header
— paragraph or containerSomething similar to that is how I imagined it. I’m confused by…
section (or header or footer, or aside)
– header…and that’s about all.
I like much of what is proposed with html5 in the working draft as it is, but a few things are a little…off…at least at the moment. I’m still interested in seeing what the merged working groups will be doing. I’m sure there are issues that will be dealt with eventually. IE seems to be the biggest issue for me, as always, at the moment. There was a time I even thought IE8 had a full standards mode with full support for XML…o.O. There are still CSS2 problems with IE (such as having an element with overflow:scroll inside of a floating element) that force compat. mode (IE7 Quirks or Standards mode…I can’t think of IE7 as being ‘standards-related’ at all though). For the huge ball-busting Microsoft did to market IE8, I would have expected much more. They support a few CSS3 features, but CSS3 to me can’t work well without a good CSS2/1 basis that Firefox, Opera, Webkit-based and other browsers have. You can’t own a saddle (CSS3) without having a horse (CSS2) (well you can but it’s much a collector’s item and nothing else unless you have the horse, lol).
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A List Apart had a good article proposing to use divs with new attributes, like ‘div role=header’ ‘div role=footer’ and the like. That would not break compatibility and be extensible.
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