CSS3

While the IE7 update will not be automatic, I can't imagine that the vast majority of users will not accept the upgrade. Therefore, I believe the IE7 penetration will much more rapid than previous browser versions. The only snag that I could really foresee is enterprise administrators not accepting the upgrade but because of the swiss cheese security holes of IE6, I would imagine most administrators want to get IE6 off their client systems ASAP. But as Ransico states, IE7 still misses significant support CSS standards. Although some of the major CSS issues have been addressed and the rendering is much better compared to the previous versions. Boy, I can't wait til the day that I can write one CSS file and not have to include a bunch of browser-specific hacks! I wonder if that day will ever come. I'd like to put some faith into Microsoft to follow-through with their statement to never let this kind of extended lapse of release to occur again. I'd really like to see new versions every 12 to 18 months with minor updates as necessary. So bring on IE8 with full-CSS2 and possibly CSS3 support! Have a great day everyone! Posted to " IE6 isn't going anywhere yet " by Chris August 18th, 2006

Peter, I think these new CSS features are incredibly important and valuable - they specifically address key selling points for proprietary solutions like Flash (rotation, simple animation). They may sound like flippery, but they're key features that users want, and any styling mechanism that doesn't include them has a big gap. And I've never found a cross-browser javascript library that enables rotation and skews - can you let us know where to find one? Finally, for advanced animation like Pacman, I agree script is the better solution (you couldn't do that using webkit's new styles anyway). But for simpler effects like CSS menus that fade in and out, I don't see why you should need any script at all. These effects are "style" effects, and I think belong in CSS. Posted to " Webkit introduce more new features " by Chris October 31st, 2007

@David, very good point about CSS overlapping with SVG. Looking through the SVG table of contents, you'll spot many other features that could (should?) eventually find their way into CSS (filters, gradients, masks, patterns, transformations - even perhaps paths). Personally I would support this, because it means these effects can be brought to the HTML web. But it would need to be done in such a way that it doesn't screw up SVG. Sharing syntax, as you propose, could achieve this and even bring momentum around SVG support from web developers, as they learn about advanced effects in CSS. Posted to " Webkit introduce more new features " by Chris November 9th, 2007

Once you add a CSS "rotate" style, you'll also need CSS "rotatable", for the browser to offer a user interface for rotating elements. It should work similarly to "resizable". Posted to " Latest updates to CSS 3 modules " by Chris October 16th, 2007

I agree with Exec @61. The box model isn't going anywhere for a long time and will continue to be the basic element shape for years yet, in my opinion. And every 2-dimensional box has what? 4 sides, 4 corners. So all we need to be able to do is set an image for each side (tiled for the border) and each corner. Because let's face it, anyone who wants drop-shadows probably wants rounded corners too. For instance: border-right: 10px transparent url(rightdropshadow.png) repeat-y; border-bottom: 10px transparent url(bottomdropshadow.png) repeat-x; corner-bottom-right: 10px transparent url(bottomrightdropshadow.png); . . . . ... and so on. Posted to " CSS Drop Shadows " by Chris October 10th, 2008

@Boris - Certainly at such an early development stage these functions aren't intended for widespread use - rather to give designers a chance to experiment and play around with new functionality, so that the W3C and browser vendors can respond and adapt to any feedback/criticisms of the new specifications. Posted to " Firefox 3.6 adds background clipping " by Chris August 26th, 2009

One of the tests is for :contains - is that still part of CSS3? It seems to be missing from http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-selectors/, but I know it was in an earlier draft. It would be brilliant if it was in - the ability to do "conditional formatting", as per MS Excel spreadsheets, would open up a whole new area on the web. (Plus things like "find on page"). Posted to " Fully selected " by Chris February 5th, 2008

http://www.killie6.com Posted to " Kill IE6 to let CSS3 live " by Chris February 21st, 2008

Have you tested IE8b1? Posted to " Firefox 3.1 is the latest to pass our selectors test " by Chris June 5th, 2008

I've just updated to 0826, was using 0825 previously, but still having problems, even without the px - would you care to share your code Philippe?  Posted to " Firefox 3.6 adds background clipping " by Chris August 26th, 2009

Sorry to bang on about svg when it's nothing to do with Opera 10 it's not really part of CSS3 but I was thinking... if background images worked like fonts and the browser used the first image it understood then you could list an svg followed by a png. And to my surprise Safari works this way. Shame Opera and Firefox fail to use any image (I've not tested IE). I would think that adding this functionality wouldn't be too difficult to implement. But why would the IE team want to add functionality which allowed Opera to produce better looking web site. Posted to " Opera 10 Alpha continues the CSS3 push " by Chris December 9th, 2008

Try here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc351024%28VS.85%29.aspx Posted to " CSS3 Rekindled " by Chris August 13th, 2009

Nox: It would be nice if browsers defaulted to the last valid rule they understood so you could put set a background as a png and then on the next line an svg, but they don't. I've just come across the same problem with using an RGBA background color where it would have been nice to set a normal RGB background first (for IE) and then a RGBA on the next line. However, I'm sure that if they did work in this way it would cause all kinds of unimaginable problems! It's good to see that both Mozilla and Webkit projects are at least thinking about implementing svg as backgrounds as I think svg is a technology waiting for a use, and I think backgrounds are the perfect match for svg. No idea about fragments, sorry. Posted to " Opera 10 Alpha continues the CSS3 push " by Chris December 8th, 2008

@Chris H: The fact that many tiny images need much more size (resp. bandwidth) is not a limitation of http. So the image sprites are a good idea regardless of the quality of the protocoll. Posted to " Image Sprites Syntax Request " by Chris October 19th, 2009

Stifu: SVG can be styled using as stylesheet so in theory there shouldn't be any extra difficulties when you alter a background color or border thickness. In practice, because the SVG is already in a style sheet [background-image: url('image.svg');] I can't see a way of styling it, which is a shame. Seen as you can already import a stylesheet into a stylesheet it shouldn't be a great leap to allow you to import one to style the svg images. Other browsers don't ignore this rule because it works with background (rather than -o-background) so as things stand conditional-CSS would be required. Posted to " Opera 10 Alpha continues the CSS3 push " by Chris December 5th, 2008

@ lib, @ stifu - sorry, i was thinking of the url, didn't realise the page title hadn't updated, has now been changed. Posted to " Online Tools for Cross-browser CSS3 Rule Generation " by Chris March 18th, 2010

Welcome on board Suzy! :) Posted to " Suzy waves to readers of css3.info " by Chris August 12th, 2009

Thanks David, Looking forwards to downloading this when I get home :) Posted to " Opera 10 unleashed, brings Web Fonts and transparency to the table " by Chris September 1st, 2009

I've been playing around with this myself this morning, trying numerous variations of the syntax as discussed here: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113577 No joy in version 3.7a1pre Posted to " Firefox 3.6 adds background clipping " by Chris August 26th, 2009

Rounded corners are easy in Opera. 9.5 supports SVG as a background-image so you can create rounded corners, drop shadows, gradients all of which will scale perfectly to whatever element you apply it too. It's a shame other browsers don't appear to support this. Posted to " Opera 10 Alpha continues the CSS3 push " by Chris December 5th, 2008

I wonder if the same rule can be applied to IE6 as to fairies in Peter Pan, everytime a web designer says they don't believe in IE6, somewhere in the world an installation of IE6 dies. Posted to " Has IE6 Finally Reached the End of the Line? " by Chris August 27th, 2009

I wouldn't be too optimistic; IE7 did came via auto-update and for many (corporate) users this didn't change anything. And Microsoft plans to support IE6 until 2014 - so you can bet that the people who didn't upgrade to IE7 yet, won't upgrade to IE8 until they must - in five years. Though I wish it weren't so. Posted to " Has IE6 Finally Reached the End of the Line? " by Chris August 27th, 2009

@Chris - we can but hope! @Tony R. - loving the "IE6-feet-under" :) Posted to " Has IE6 Finally Reached the End of the Line? " by Chris August 27th, 2009

Thanks Joost! Just trying to continue your good work :) Posted to " Site Update: CSS3 Module Status Table " by Chris July 19th, 2009

Presumably, this technique would also enable the 'cite' attribute of the 'blockquote' tag to be displayed as a tooltip. True, not many people use the cite attribute, but one reason for this is precisely because browsers have never displayed it properly. Cite could now be revived from semi-obscurity and used as it was always meant to be used; and no javascript required either. Excellent! Posted to " Tooltips with CSS3 " by Chris April 26th, 2009

@James - thanks James. @Dimox - wouldn't we all! I'd be happy if they at least rendered css2 correctly :) @CyberSkull, Andy - I will be taking stock of the sites contents over the next couple of weeks, i'll then be updating the site, and adding new content (i realise that the module status and previews pages are not fully up to date and will be making this my first priority) @Lukasz - new content is on it's way :) Posted to " CSS3.info - New Owner, Same Great Site " by Chris July 17th, 2009

images fixed :) Posted to " A brief introduction to Opacity and RGBA " by Chris October 22nd, 2009

Unfortunately the Windows version doesn't currently support 3D transform. Posted to " Webkit Announces Support for CSS 3D Transforms " by Chris July 21st, 2009

Option 1) CSS3 can be fun, but it can be a dry subject. Having a fun and charming looking site helps get over that. Posted to " CSS3 .info - Have Your Say " by Chris March 19th, 2010

I am old enough to remember when IE6 was the good browser, Yahoo! was thee search engine and Apple was a has been. ACID 3 is nice to have, but like any synthetic benchmark or test it can be gamed. Also 100% ACID 3 is not guarantee of standards compliance. A standards complaint IE released on a regular schedule will help us all. Hell of a lot better than letting it rot like they did with IE6. Posted to " Internet Explorer 9 Platform Preview Released " by Chris March 23rd, 2010

It appears that this article, or rather my overuse of the word “whilst” in the article, has also caused some controversy over on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/ccwnu/ie9_html5_and_css3_those_100_numbers_are_real_but/c0rowhm Posted to " Microsoft Test Results Cause Controversy " by Chris June 9th, 2010

Some interesting comments here, especially Wolf and Gus early on - what's up with that? Anyway, I like the idea of CSS mimicking nature's shadows with regards to partial opacity backgrounds / borders. But is this really feasible with CSS, or even necessary for the effect to be convincing and attractive? Likewise for the "Photoshop's features" arguments - I feel that we're asking too much of the humble CSS 'language'. For me having both 'border-shadow' and 'box-shadow' would give the best of both allowing designers / developers to choose which aspect they wanted to shadow. As for border-image - If you're going to the trouble of creating an image for the border then you should just add the shadow effect in your image editor! Especially since, as numerous people have pointed out, Photoshop (et al's) shadow features are much more advanced and allow greater control and refinement. The CSS Shadow features should be there for speed and simplicity, for designs / designers who can't or don't want to use an image based solution. Thanks for this site! Posted to " CSS Drop Shadows " by Chris May 4th, 2010

@ sergej - thanks, i've updated the post. @ Tenno - yes, the features currently require the -moz prefix, webkit also supports background size with the -wekbit prefix. @ Peter - done, and thanks for the demo Posted to " Firefox 3.6 Alpha 1 Offers Increased Support for CSS3 " by Chris August 9th, 2009

Of course the best solution all around is for everyone to switch to firefox (or opera) :) Thankfully Universities here in the UK seem to be taking a two pronged approach, leaving IE6 in place for those websites/systems that require it, whilst providing firefox for general browsing. Oxford, one of the UK's most prestigious universities, recommends firefox over IE in announcements to staff and students on its website, and here at Leeds Met all publicly accessible computers now have firefox and ie6 installed side by side. Unfortunately non-public pc's (in faculties/offices) seem to have missed out on this upgrade - thankfully firefox portable saves my life on a daily basis. Posted to " Has IE6 Finally Reached the End of the Line? " by Chris August 28th, 2009

@ Neal G - I'm in exactly the same boat here! If anyone has a mac and some spare time to make a video, please get in touch and i'll post it on the site.  Posted to " Webkit Announces Support for CSS 3D Transforms " by Chris July 20th, 2009

OK, I managed to get my hands on a Mac and have uploaded a video of the preview in action. It's a pretty nifty effect, but I have to agree with Tom as to its practicality, if anyone has any thoughts on how it could be used please feel free to share them. Luckily 3D Transforms isn't seen as a high priority by the CSS3 working group at present, so it shouldn't slow down the development of other modules. Posted to " Webkit Announces Support for CSS 3D Transforms " by Chris July 21st, 2009

@ Andreas - I understand your concerns, but please rest assured css3.info will continue to deliver the quality of content you've grown to expect, however in our recent request for feedback a considerable amount of users also expressed an interest in more CSS3 tutorials, as well as continuing to deliver the latest news on CSS3 developments from the W3C and browser vendors. A number of web designers have offered to write a series of tutorials for the website and will be given the opportunity to do so on a trial basis - i'll let the community be the judge of their content, however please wait to judge these authors on the basis of their content rather than their introductory posts. I suggested that the new authors make a small introductory post about themselves prior to posting their tutorials, looking back through the site's archives this seemed to be how CSS3.info had worked in the past, however following feedback from users, in future any new authors will lead with their first actual article, rather than an introductory post - this seems to be the general consensus of opinion. To those who have commented on Jalokims English - let's not forget that CSS3.info appeals to a global audeince, not just those countries who speak English as a primary language. Poland is actually in our top ten countries in terms of traffic received. Following feedback here I have asked Jalokim to consider a more formal approach to any future articles, however again I ask you to judge on the content of the articles to follow rather the authors grammatical use of the English language. I will also shortly be restructuring the site and it's RSS feeds so that those who wish to only follow the technical developments with CSS3 will be able to do so, and those who are looking for CSS3 tutorials and implementation guidance will be able to find this in a seperate section of the site. In the meantime, please with us. Kind Regards, Chris Kind Regards, Chris Posted to " New Author, Mikolaj Sitek, Introduces Himself to CSS3.info " by Chris August 31st, 2009

Welcome on board Jalokim, looking forward to those tutorials. Thanks, Chris Posted to " New Author, Mikolaj Sitek, Introduces Himself to CSS3.info " by Chris August 29th, 2009

Only scores 91 for me, strange. Posted to " Firefox 3.6 Alpha 1 Offers Increased Support for CSS3 " by Chris August 9th, 2009

@ Aaron - Thanks for pointing out the typo Posted to " Online Tools for Cross-browser CSS3 Rule Generation " by Chris March 15th, 2010

Current versions of Firefox, Safari, Opera and Chrome all pass our selectors test with flying colours, however the fact that Microsoft seem to be finally getting on board with CSS3 and starting to take notice of the design community is great news for web developers and great news for the future of CSS3. Posted to " Microsoft Announces CSS3 Support for Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) " by Chris November 18th, 2009

Thanks, the module status page has now been updated. Regards, Chris. Posted to " CSS3 Progress following the W3C TPAC 2009 " by Chris December 7th, 2009

lol, hadn't even realised! it's a very old post :) Posted to " IE9 to include alternative 'CSS.2012' standard " by Chris December 9th, 2009

@ Nono - thanks for pointing out the error, I've corrected the article. Posted to " CSS3 Pseudo-Class Selectors Emulation in Internet Explorer " by Chris January 25th, 2010

 I don't know if this has been mentioned, but a trick we learnt when developing our Joomla template framework Morph, is to include browser specific stylesheets, then add the vendor specific css there. For example, -moz-border-radius would go in the firefox.css and -webkit-border-radius would go in chrome.css, safari.css or webkit.css. The neat part is because the validator is seen as its own browser "engine", none of these browser specific stylesheets are included when the validation is done, thus any site using this method can take advantage of these vendor specific selectors and still have their site validate. Important to mention that this doesn't work on the local validation service built into the Firefox Webdev toolbar, but it works 100% on the online "live" version of the validator (which is the one that counts anyways). Hope that helps ;) Cheers, Chris Posted to " The Big CSS3 Validation Debate " by Chris December 16th, 2009

Hopefully soon now that Backgrounds and Borders has reached candidate recommendation. Posted to " Opera adds support for CSS3 Transitions and 2D Transforms " by Chris December 22nd, 2009

@CupidsToejam - You need to make sure you are using the -o- prefix, for example -o-tranform-origin in your stylesheet, also bear in mind that only Opera 10.5 + will support these properties, the current Opera release version 10.10 does not yet offer support for 2D Transforms. Hope this helps. Posted to " Opera adds support for CSS3 Transitions and 2D Transforms " by Chris December 31st, 2009

 How did stacey fix the issue with the browser asking what to do with the dragged font file? Set Firefox to "open" the font, or something else? Posted to " CSS3 Resource: Preview Custom Web Fonts with Font Dragr " by Chris January 10th, 2010

The site was definitely due for a change, but this design needs something else. Grey, blue, and white don't make me excited about CSS3. Posted to " Welcome to the new look CSS3 .info " by Chris February 25th, 2010

Although the new comment yellow fade transition thing was really awesome! Posted to " Welcome to the new look CSS3 .info " by Chris February 25th, 2010

 @ Stifu - too late to change it now Posted to " Online Tools for Cross-browser CSS3 Rule Generation " by Chris March 17th, 2010

Firstly thanks to everyone who’s taken the time to provide constructive feedback, either positive or negative. Whilst there are too many comments to address each one individually, I’ll try my best to respond to the main points / issues raised. Firstly there have been numerous calls to go back to the old design. Unfortunately this is not an option. The main reason for the redesign was to allow the site to grow and expand beyond being simply a blog. When the previous design was created, the site was still in its infancy, with content being split largely between two sections of the site – the blog and the CSS3 preview section. Now the site is much more complex, with content being split over several sections including the blog, the preview, tools & resources and tutorials, with additional sections such as a forum and CSS3 reference due to be launched this year. The site’s previous template, both in terms of the menu space available and the theme’s hierarchy, did not allow for this expansion. Similarly a number of complaints have been raised about errors in the previous theme, with display issues in webkit based browsers and unhelpful formatting of articles (i.e. bullet points being stripped from posts). Given the size and complexity theme, it was a much simpler task to rebuild the sites theme from the ground up, providing a cleaner code base, removing previous problems and making it easier to update / expand the site in the future. Many people have commented on the lack of fun / life / character in the design, and a few have spoken up for the designs simplicity. The main emphasis of the redesign was from a functional rather than design point of view. The reason for the simplicity of the new design, as compared to the previous, was that many within the web standards community had voiced negative opinions of the previous design, particularly the rainbow header. Whilst I do quite like the rainbow header of the old design, I do feel it would be more suited to a generic or graphics design blog / magazine, rather than a site concerned with web standards, however as a number of people have pointed out, there is the opportunity to liven up the new design, however I wanted the new design to focus on what could be achieved with CSS3, rather than what could be achieved in photoshop – this I believe is more in the spirit of the site than an overly graphical approach. A number of people have raised genuine concerns about the colour scheme, with some of the text being too hard to read (black against grey bg, blue against grey bg) which will be looked into and alternative colours used where appropriate. Peter Gasston, one of the authors on CSS3 .info, has suggested a few amendments to give the design a little more freshness and space. * Use a web font for titles (including the logo) * Add some rounded corners to soften the boxiness * Use a subtle background gradient behind the logo to add some texture * Put the main body copy on a 20px vertical grid You can see the example here: http://www.css3.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/P... Similarly, if anyone else has any suggestions for taking the design forward, whether it’s incorporating elements of the previous design, or something completely new, please do post them here, and feel free to link to any examples. Posted to " Welcome to the new look CSS3 .info " by Chris February 23rd, 2010

It wouldn't be hard at all, the old header was scrapped in favour of a more simple approach because of a number of negative comments received about it, as stated in my previous comment, however given the number of comments that have now come out in support I'm seriously considering bringing it back as part of the new theme. Posted to " Welcome to the new look CSS3 .info " by Chris February 23rd, 2010

@John Faulds - I already have an article in the works about CSS3Please! and CSS3Generator.com, should be ready tomorrow Posted to " CSS3 .info - Have Your Say " by Chris March 11th, 2010

"Why did the W3C in their infinite combined wisdom decide that in order to have rounded corners on a container, that container had to have a border with a width greater than 0. Infuriatingly stupid." As far as I understand it, the spec does allow for rounded borders on boxes without borders, as do all the major browsers currently, example: http://www.css3.info/demos/1.html "I completely agree with Jeffrey Gilbert, and I’m glad all the current implementations don’t respect the 'If either length is zero, the corner is square, not rounded' clause." This clause in the spec relates to the border-radius values, not the border-width values. Posted to " Box-Shadow back on the Menu (and other updates) " by Chris May 12th, 2010

It's still available via Smashing Magazine at the link below, although as this was created over three years ago it will be quite outdated now - it's a shame the author hasn't kept it up to date. http://media.smashingmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/images/css3-cheat-sheet/css3-cheat-sheet.pdf Posted to " CSS3 Quick Reference Guide " by Chris August 28th, 2012

I do not use Konquerer but am interested in making my code as universal as possible and since I'm already adding 3-4 variants of the latest codes to cover -moz-, -webkit-, opera and IE then 1 more wont hurt! More relevantly however I would suggest that the HSL vs HSV refer to the same thing (i.e. Hue-Saturation-Luminance / Hue-Saturation-Vibrance). I'm not a Photoshop expert or anything but I would guess that in this context 'Luminance' and 'Vibrance' are interchangeable. Feel free to correct this if I'm wrong though. ++ Great website btw :D ++ -- nb: Whoa!! Just realised how old this post is, hmm I wonder if my comments are still relevant or useful to anyone? - Oh well...  Posted to " Even more Konqueror CSS3 goodness! " by Chris August 6th, 2010

You can have a 0 width border and rounded corners, this is in fact the case in every demo on the preview page. Thanks for the tip Brad, i'll update the demo code. Posted to " Updated Preview: border-radius " by Chris August 11th, 2010

Sandeep, Safari/Chrome (webkit) version 5 now support border-radius without the -webkit- prefix. Posted to " Updated Preview: border-radius " by Chris August 12th, 2010

great, at last CSS3 support, rounded corners - but what about an XP version? Posted to " Microsoft Announces CSS3 Support for Internet Explorer 9 (IE9) " by Chris September 29th, 2010

As stated quite clearly in the article, this was a special offer and the videos were only available free until Wednesday March 16th at 11:59pm. This offer has now expired! Posted to " FREE CSS3 Video Tutorials from Think Vitamin – 24 hours only " by Chris March 28th, 2011

Internet Explorer Platform Preview supports the following two 2D Transforms properties: The -ms-transform property applies a two-dimensional transformation function to an element. It contains a list of one or more transformation functions. The -ms-transform-origin property establishes the origin of transformation for an element. This property is useful when you want to change the default origin (the center). Note Because the CSS 2D Transforms module has not yet received Candidate Recommendation status from the W3C, both the transform and transform-origin properties must be used with the -ms- prefix to be recognized by Internet Explorer Platform Preview.  Posted to " Internet Explorer 9 adds support for CSS3 2D Transforms " by Chris November 5th, 2010

Yes, this was covered when firefox 4 was released as a beta version last year. Posted to " Opera 'Barracuda' Steps Up CSS3 Support " by Chris April 1st, 2011

Article corrected, thanks. Posted to " W3C Release Series of Updated CSS3 Specifications " by Chris March 1st, 2011

Thanks fantasai, I've corrected the article with regard to Text Layout. Posted to " W3C Release Series of Updated CSS3 Specifications " by Chris March 1st, 2011

@Jason - presumably. The spec mentions the moz hacks article and the syntax appears identical. Posted to " W3C Release Series of Updated CSS3 Specifications " by Chris March 3rd, 2011

 Fixed, thanks. Posted to " FREE CSS3 Video Tutorials from Think Vitamin – 24 hours only " by Chris March 16th, 2011

I'm for C, even though I remember my polar coordinates very very well. Same reason Pam and Paul stated: when I do CSS I'm always thinking TRBL. Posted to " Angles in Gradients " by Chris May 18th, 2011

I have mixed feelings about this debate. For one I like that the W3C is trying to keep websites populated with error free coding but at the same time, web design standards and coding changes all the time. I'm not a professional web designer yet. Still in school however I am one of those people that questions the importance of valid code based on the W3C specs. In a tutorial I watched regarding Actionscript, the author made a comment in which I agree with. "I don't give a d***n about web standards. If something looks and functions the way the person who made it intends it too, then the project is a success. If it doesn't, then the person has failed." http://www.developphp.com/view.php?tid=115 What bothers me the most about this is that when you're trying to get into this industry as a professional, employers want people who are on top of the latest technologies. Employers also want people who can code "clean error free" websites. See where I'm going with this? If my website was ran against the W3C validator, it would display CSS 3 coding, but it would also return errors. Posted to " The Big CSS3 Validation Debate " by Chris April 16th, 2012